LPG Options

[bernard lpg]

Having lived in the Netherlands for the better part of my life (before coming to my senses and moved to the UK) I have owned a number of LPG cars. The LPG market in the Netherlands is far bigger than in the UK and LPG is available at almost every fuel station. As with any system you get what you pay for and systems like Prins and Vialle are well known. I can't see what an owner can do to maintain an LPG system as there is not that much to maintain. The fact that BRC is the system normally used in Fords is a bonus for 260 owners. Ford used to have a problem with the soft valve seats as did Renault early days. LPG burns at a higher temperature than petrol and that puts a strain on valves. That problem slowly disappeared when unleaded fuel was introduced. With the current multi point injection systems LPG is just a good a fuel as petrol.

The fact that the S/C Range Rover has to inject petrol to run says it all. It is tweaked to make it work. The simple fact that Scooter won't S/C an LPG car, with all his knowledge and the backing up of SHM, is all the confirmation I need.

The ZT260 is a unique car, with owners that care, knowledge shared and improvements driven by enthusiasts.
I would argue that is deserves the best LPG system available, endorsed by Ford, and maintained by specialists.

Just my 2 pennies worth

There are so many points here to reply to that I can't really find the time to answer in depth.
The systems do need servicing, especially with the LPG that The Netherlands rejects but ends up being sold here. Most enthusiasts like to maintain their own vehicles in my experience. You have to choose the systems that can be self maintained or have a lot of money to throw around.

It's not really hot running, (that's pub talk from the days when LPG was run by open loop systems and ran lean), it's dry and doesn't lubricate like petrol. The cutting back in quality by manufacturers so that materials are only just good enough to do the job is a problem which is showing in a lot of engines now, regardless of fuel.
So injecting some petrol does indeed say it all, S/C engines will run on LPG quite happily but I thought it a good idea to pop a percentage of the expensive stuff in for a second or so at full chat. There's quite a lot of fuel going through that RR engine and it is a Ford after all.

As for that being the best and endorsed etc etc. Probably influenced by their accountants as were most OEM systems. Well, put it this way, their previous main agent's sales manager in the UK came to me for his own private car to be converted.

[Herman]

Hi Bernard,

Thanks for the reply and I do stand corrected about the heating bit. LPG has less of a caloric value than petrol so can't generate more heat.

I don't think the UK gets the 'reject' LPG from the Netherlands but maybe suppliers choose their preferred markets.

As said before, I ran a number of LPG cars in the Netherlands, admittedly with systems like Vialle or Prins and can't recall any special maintenance, especially with systems that tie in with the normal ECU.

I would like to know what I could maintain on an LPG system just out of interest. Apart from the fuel filter on my petrol car I don't do anything to maintain the petrol system either.

Still thinking of getting the V8 converted as I do enough miles but also still have a preference for a 'factory fitted' type system. Maybe I am being paranoid but when it comes to warranty I rather have a system that, say Ford would use if it would be factory fitted

[bernard lpg]

Hi Bernard,

Thanks for the reply and I do stand corrected about the heating bit. LPG has less of a caloric value than petrol so can't generate more heat.

I don't think the UK gets the 'reject' LPG from the Netherlands but maybe suppliers choose their preferred markets.

As said before, I ran a number of LPG cars in the Netherlands, admittedly with systems like Vialle or Prins and can't recall any special maintenance, especially with systems that tie in with the normal ECU.

I would like to know what I could maintain on an LPG system just out of interest. Apart from the fuel filter on my petrol car I don't do anything to maintain the petrol system either.

Still thinking of getting the V8 converted as I do enough miles but also still have a preference for a 'factory fitted' type system. Maybe I am being paranoid but when it comes to warranty I rather have a system that, say Ford would use if it would be factory fitted

I was being a little facetious about the reject LPG but it was true a few years back that a tanker load was refused by the Netherlands on the grounds of quality but was sold in the UK. The result was that some of the rubber components of the LPG systems were attacked by the contaminants in the rogue propane causing us all a good deal of grief. The equipment manufacturers said, with some justification, that their components were compatible with the "accepted standard" of autogas and declined resposibility whilst the LPGA, with customary cowardice, declined to be involved, presumably as it was one of their largest subscribers who was the culprit.

Bearing the above in mind and that we have just suffered a batch of "greasy" gas then I suggest perhaps being able to, at least, clean and set up your own system would not be a bad thing.
Some manufacturers will not even supply a filter to the retail market.
The main aim of 99.9% of autogas users, in my experience, is to save money; I have only ever had one enquiry on environmental grounds.

As for the factory fit comment, I stand by my previous answer. However, you must go with what you are happy with. I am only trying to dispel some of the myths and mystique about autogas. It's not 'rocket science' as they say.

[Willieo]

Has anyone looked at the liquid multi point LPG injection systems?

[bernard lpg]

Unless there has been a dramatic development of which I am unaware, then it's a complete disaster. Ford and others went down this route and did the industry a lot of damage from horrendous unreliability issues. I replaced lots of Liquid injection systems with vapour systems due to despair by the owners.

The weak points being the high pressure pumping system and the tiny injector pintle diameters and small injection times.

Great pity really, as the liquid system would have a greater volumetric effiiency.

[scooter]

We looked at Supercharging on LPG and in our opinion its a non starter. No matter what is said LPG is like using a lower octane fuel as far a supercharging is concerned. To have to inject some extra petrol under load proves the point. All you are doing in fact is running it rich to stop detonation. What does that do to the fuel saving by the use of LPG? We did a lot of work to get our conversion to run on our British unleaded which is much lower in octane value than the US fuel. To get it to run safely on LPG would mean reducing the performance that much that in my opinion would make the kit not worth the cost of doing it.

[bernard lpg]

That's strange as LPG has an octane rating of over 104. Also I was injecting a little petrol mainly because I just could not reliably vapourise and stuff enough gas into the engine at full chat without having to double up on equipment. The petrol is only to act as a top up for a few seconds occasionally, not enriching the mixture beyond normal and not to prevent detonation. If you are seeing that then there is something wrong with the spec/setup of the equipment.

The well respected Range Rover tuning company, JE Engineering, also use the same kit as I do -

http://www.jeengineering.co.uk/produ...nversions.html

I did a bit of work with them 11 or 12 years ago on the P38 and learned a lot about the RR engine management especially with the application of LPG.