Anyone near me want to play with diagnostics?

First an introduction. I am one (there only two of us) of the people behind the pscan.eu diagnostics system for Rovers and MGs.
I don't want to launch into a sales pitch because I don't know if that's allowed on this forum, and I don't even know if the product works on the V8 models.

I would like to find out though.

Is there anyone on here who would fancy meeting up, preferably in Ruislip area, to give it a try?

I am told that the T4 will not talk to the Ford engine ECU, is it true?
My suspicion is that the Ford ECU talks PWM whereas the T4 hardware is probably only capable of ISO and the development needed to include PWM never happened.

The thing is that our product in theory has the capability to talk PWM. We would have to develop the firmware to make it work but at least the drivers are on the circuit board. Again I would like to find out.

thanks, Philip

Sounds interesting but I live in Sweden.:-( If you get it to work, would it be an expensive system for workshops or affordable for the consumer?

We are already selling the tool for £149GBP which I think is affordable. In terms of "getting it to work" we have already covered all of the Engine ECUs, ABS controllers and Airbag ECUs fitted to Rover 75s except for the V8 models.

We plan to keep improving the tool and covering more ECUs which is why I would be interested to meet up with a V8 owner.

The other option is that if anyone has a spare ECU, even a broken one, that I could borrow I could try things out and then send it back. If the ECU is broken it depends on the extent of its brokenness. I only need the diagnostic protocol to come up, it does not need to actually run an engine.

The advantage of meeting someone is that we could try out the ABS and Airbag protocols as well.

The T4 does talk to the for ECU as I have a T4. I have never had any trouble connecting to any V8. i have even connected to a prototype 260.I would like to meet up with you to discuss but I am in south wales. I willbe at brooklands for MG ERA day in 2 weeks if that is any help feel free to PM me

Wynn connected his T4 to my 260 ,when AE Wilcox couldn't get theirs to connect at all !!!!!

A five star T4 service !!!

Thanks again Wynn

Harry

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Originally Posted by eurorover

The T4 does talk to the for ECU as I have a T4. I have never had any trouble connecting to any V8. i have even connected to a prototype 260.I would like to meet up with you to discuss but I am in south wales. I willbe at brooklands for MG ERA day in 2 weeks if that is any help feel free to PM me

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I'm not a million miles away from you, and 317 is currently enjoying a spring holiday.

You're more then welcome to come over and have a play

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Originally Posted by pscan.eu

We are already selling the tool for £149GBP which I think is affordable. In terms of "getting it to work" we have already covered all of the Engine ECUs, ABS controllers and Airbag ECUs fitted to Rover 75s except for the V8 models.

We plan to keep improving the tool and covering more ECUs which is why I would be interested to meet up with a V8 owner.

The other option is that if anyone has a spare ECU, even a broken one, that I could borrow I could try things out and then send it back. If the ECU is broken it depends on the extent of its brokenness. I only need the diagnostic protocol to come up, it does not need to actually run an engine.

The advantage of meeting someone is that we could try out the ABS and Airbag protocols as well.

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I'm very interested if you can get it to Work on our cars!:-)

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Originally Posted by greeners

Location: Welwyn Garden City

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I often work in Hatfield so that really is quite convenient.

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Originally Posted by pscan.eu

I often work in Hatfield so that really is quite convenient.

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I work shifts so I'm about a lot of the time....

Hello there

Regarding the pscan giving access to the MGZT260 systems - may I enquire if the device has now been tweaked and proven to access the car's devices. I would be interested in the unit if this is the case - although I can see that there are not many posts on the topic.

Regards
David S.

In general T4 seems to be ok with the ZT260 but we have had cars that would not speak to T4

I have been working on this quite a lot recently. Time for an update I think, and also another plea for help. Working with Greeners was great but I can't get hold of him anymore.

1. I now have a real T4 which is hugely helpful as a development tool, and I have had a chance to try it on a 260.
I found that it would go into the engine ECU, but attempting to read error codes causes it to go into a loop that you can't get out without shutting down the T4.
Reading live data works.

2. I have also found that I can get straight into the engine ECU using Ford Mustang commands. The emissions based data is already done (as in the same as an OBD2 tool). This needed a bit of tweaking compared with OBD2 but I think it works.

3. The amount of data that can be extracted in Ford mode is insane. There appear to be far more parameters in there than I have ever seen on any other ECU, with sensors for things like fuel tank pressure as well as level. You can check for errors from the fuel filler cap sensor. I don't know how many of these will actually work on a V8 R75/ZT. It might be that the sensors are not there, or the ECU might have different firmware to a Ford Mustang. This is certainly data that a T4 can't read.

I can also read error codes reliably :-)

At the moment I am wading through all of these parameters and converting them all, and I don't even know if they will work. I have to travel a bit to meet up with an owner and I don't want to keep hassling him so I am currently doing the whole lot and hoping that I'm not wasting my time.

If anyone else is closer and can let me have a play with my results so far it would be really useful.

You need to post your location Philip.

Nich.

I live in Ruislip and work in Hatfield, so anywhere in those areas or between are convenient.
My normal commute is M25 J17 to J22 and back.

Philip, I bought your pscan.eu interface some time ago, for my V6 75 and other Rovers, must admit I haven't used it in a while as I now own a T4 too.
I'm based in France so working together with you on 260 debugging might not be practical, but nevertheless if you need another hand in testing your software on a 260, just let me know.

The latest update 0417 should work on your V8, so if you can give it a try I would love to hear how you get on.

Phil,

Just seen this thread - I have a 2006 75 V8 and am based in Canary Wharf - so not too far from you. Happy to assist.

Regards

Tony

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Originally Posted by pscan.eu

I live in Ruislip and work in Hatfield, so anywhere in those areas or between are convenient.
My normal commute is M25 J17 to J22 and back.

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I'm based in Hatfield if that is any help to you.

Kev

I have had some recent luck with 75s. It seems that like buses three have come at once.
Rob Bell has lent me his ZT-T diesel for a few weeks, and I have pretty much done the GM6 already and I started looking at climate control and instruments.
At the same time I found an early 1.8 75 that was been abandoned and about to be scrapped, I managed to remove I think every ECU from that so I can make my own "75 in a box".
I also found a ZT V8 in Ruislip.
I went and knocked on the guys door last night and he is willing to let me play with it.

So here is the question. What is the same about a V8 as other 75s and what is different? So what do I need to focus on whilst I have access to this guys V8 in Ruislip?

His car has factory reversing sensors so I will play with that as my other guinea pigs don't have that.
Also the Ford engine ECU is specific to the V8, but I already have a Ford Mustang ECU and so it will be interesting to see to what extent they are different or the same.
The obvious thing is the intermediate ECU (the one that converts from Rover/BMW protocols to Ford). I know that these are difficult to find and so that's one I should obviously concentrate on.

I am guessing that GM6, SRS, Instruments, EWS3, Climate control will all be the same as a non V8? Can anyone on here clarify?

thanks, Philip

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Originally Posted by pscan.eu

I am guessing that GM6, SRS, Instruments, EWS3, Climate control will all be the same as a non V8? Can anyone on here clarify?

thanks, Philip

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I think the climate control on V8's has a different ecu. Some time ago I fitted an aftermarket control panel from Mat at DMGRS which would not work on the V8 (full heat whatever setting it was on). This panel works perfectly on standard cars so something is different on the V8. Sorry can't help with other items.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Burwell Mike

I think the climate control on V8's has a different ecu. Some time ago I fitted an aftermarket control panel from Mat at DMGRS which would not work on the V8 (full heat whatever setting it was on). This panel works perfectly on standard cars so something is different on the V8. Sorry can't help with other items.

Mike

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Odd thing is that a regular 75 panel (2000 and 2003, MGR) works just fine in my R75V8 and vice versa. Was playing around swapping them a few years back to see if that improved things, which it didn't, of course. Part number is identical on all of them, so there is something odd about the 'after-market' panels (MG7?) only perhaps. Differences in the HVAC design between 260 and RV8 are well known of course, as well as the obvious major differences between V8/non-V8 of both variants. Looks like that stretches to other HVAC electronics bits-and-pieces rather than the panel and its packaged electronics, from what you say Mike.

David

Hi David,

As you say there must be a subtle difference in the outputs of the aftermarket panel that messes with the V8 HVAC signals to the heating valve. There is a HVAC ECU on V8's that I can't find listed as a standard 75/ZT item. Unfortunately as Rimmers no longer provide part numbers on their listings for NLA items it is difficult to do a conclusive search, but I cannot see the same item on the 75/ZT heater assemby diagrams (Item 5 on the V8 diagram).

I have often thought that gremlins in this additional ecu is what causes heating problems on some cars and not others, or possibly just a dodgy connection to it. The HVAC has always worked perfectly on #431 (touching wood as I type!) but fitting the aftermarket panel showed the ecu was sensitive to different inputs

Mike

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Originally Posted by Burwell Mike

.... Unfortunately as Rimmers no longer provide part numbers on their listings for NLA items it is difficult to do a conclusive search, but I cannot see the same item on the 75/ZT heater assemby diagrams (Item 5 on the V8 diagram)...
Mike

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Should be possible to find that on the EPC. Mine has gone on the blink, I'm afraid (or to be more precise the only old Windows XP computer I still have that will run the EPC).

David

Yes I did the same, it was like a furnace. Odd that the control panel is the same though.

Steve

Not much to add other than I know Rob Bell & he was singing the PScan praises when we last met up - i'm definitely interested in buying one when it is ready for my V8. Would love to volunteer my car too, but although i am relatively local (Essex), the car is not (it's away having a supercharger fitted). Not sure if the blower will affect the PScan, i presume the same sensors will be doing the same jobs, but just at different rates. Once done, am happy to get together so you can have a play with a blown car.

Lastly, i read with interest the notes on the information coming out of the Ford ECU. One of the niggles with the V8 is that there are limits to what the car's BCU & the Engine ECU can understand - the Gateway doesn't do much translating beyond the essentials. This means the onboard driver computer is really very limited in it's functionality - it doesn't even have an instant or average fuel consumption display. As you can imagine, on a 4.6l V8 this is sorely missed!

I believe the Torque App is capable of reading a lot of this data, but it would be good if there was some way to integrate it into the car's IPK display rather than an OBDII dongle & an app (on your phone or head unit). Seems to me that step one is cracking the ECUs language & outputs & it sounds like you are a long way along this road. :)

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Originally Posted by Burwell Mike

Hi David,

As you say there must be a subtle difference in the outputs of the aftermarket panel that messes with the V8 HVAC signals to the heating valve. There is a HVAC ECU on V8's that I can't find listed as a standard 75/ZT item. Unfortunately as Rimmers no longer provide part numbers on their listings for NLA items it is difficult to do a conclusive search, but I cannot see the same item on the 75/ZT heater assemby diagrams (Item 5 on the V8 diagram).

I have often thought that gremlins in this additional ecu is what causes heating problems on some cars and not others, or possibly just a dodgy connection to it. The HVAC has always worked perfectly on #431 (touching wood as I type!) but fitting the aftermarket panel showed the ecu was sensitive to different inputs

Mike

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If the ECU you are thinking about is the one mounted on the heater box under the dash then it is part number JFW000011. I was hoping that changing that would sort out my heater gremlins but alas no.

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Originally Posted by re-tread

If the ECU you are thinking about is the one mounted on the heater box under the dash then it is part number JFW000011. I was hoping that changing that would sort out my heater gremlins but alas no.

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Yes that looks like the one! Oh well there goes my theory about the HVAC ecu causing the problems. Sorry that you had no joy after changing it Dave.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Fever

Not much to add other than I know Rob Bell & he was singing the PScan praises when we last met up - i'm definitely interested in buying one when it is ready for my V8. Would love to volunteer my car too, but although i am relatively local (Essex), the car is not (it's away having a supercharger fitted). Not sure if the blower will affect the PScan, i presume the same sensors will be doing the same jobs, but just at different rates. Once done, am happy to get together so you can have a play with a blown car.

Lastly, i read with interest the notes on the information coming out of the Ford ECU. One of the niggles with the V8 is that there are limits to what the car's BCU & the Engine ECU can understand - the Gateway doesn't do much translating beyond the essentials. This means the onboard driver computer is really very limited in it's functionality - it doesn't even have an instant or average fuel consumption display. As you can imagine, on a 4.6l V8 this is sorely missed!

I believe the Torque App is capable of reading a lot of this data, but it would be good if there was some way to integrate it into the car's IPK display rather than an OBDII dongle & an app (on your phone or head unit). Seems to me that step one is cracking the ECUs language & outputs & it sounds like you are a long way along this road. :)

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Thank you for the kind words.

The guy who has one in Ruislip tells me that he wants to sell his (it's a green ZT 260, 60,000 miles and totally unmodified by the way) so I have to get as much done as quickly as I can.

I doubt whether super charging will effect pscan. It would be interesting to find out.

So I think that there is something called the HEVAC, I'm not sure if that's different to the heater controls. T4 warns you that it has to shut down the HEVAC before it can log in; non V8s don't do that.

There is the Gateway ECU which my T4 doesn't talk to very well, but I have gotten enough out of it that with access to this fellow's car I might be able to do something anyway.

The engine ECU (I guess via the Gateway ECU) does give more data than an EOBD scanner and I think I will be able to crack it, so worth doing.

One strange thing is that when you connect an EOBD tool it talks to a V8 in Ford mode, just as it would to a Mustang ECU (I have one). So it seems to me that you can talk to the engine ECU either directly the Ford way, or the Rover way through the Gateway ECU.

Probably Rover thought that it would be cheaper to do the diagnostics through a Gateway ECU and continue to use BMW style diagnostics that to change the T4 and make all the MG Rover dealers by "new" T4s. But I'm only guessing.

Anyway the wierd thing is that I have a Ford tool that works on my Mustang ECU, but on the ZT 260... nothing. So you can talk to the ECU the Ford way with an EOBD tool in Ford mode, but a Ford tool in Ford mode not.

So, this suggests that actually Rover did modify the ECUs and they aren't "just a Ford" ECU.

Can anyone confirm?

There is no evidence of the diagnostic protocol from the T4 to the Gateway ECU appearing on PWM pins of the diagnostic port that I can see. So it looks like there is no easy way to get around the back of the Gateway ECU and talk directly with Ford protocols as I had hoped. It is almost as if the Gateway has two PWM ports, one that goes to the diagnostic port and one that goes to the engine ECU, so the Gateway ECU converts from Rover (BMW DS2 derived) protocols to PWM on the Mustang ECU, and it also converts from PWM from an EOBD scannner to PWM on the Mustang ECU.

Edit: The above is incorrect. See later post below.

Anyway. I have done most of the work of reverse engineering the T4 protocols for the engine ECU and Gateway ECU. I can already connect to those ECUs so the basic protocol and the security works, it's just a case of finishing off reverse engineering the T4 and implementing in pscan.

One problem I have is that the 260 that I'm working on in Ruislip has no error codes in the Gateway ECU, and so I can't tell how the T4 reads them and decodes them.

Really I need to create an error code in the Gateway ECU. I suppose that pulling the fuse that powers the Mustang ECU would do it? Will this cause any trouble that I can't then easily correct with my T4?

Can anyone suggest any easy, safe and reversible ways to cause the Gateway ECU to log one or more error codes?

I need to do this but I can't take too much risk messing up someone elses car.

One of the mechanics I know used to work for Kernahan's in Witney, this was a MGR dealership and they sold several 260's. He was telling me some 260's had to go back to the factory as some faults were unfixable at the dealerships even though they had all the tools and diagnostic software.

Interstingly they had one car with a heater stuck on hot that ended up going back to the factory.

Steve

Pulling the ABS fuse created some error codes :)

I looked at the wiring diagrams and my above assumptions are wrong. The OBD port does connect straight to the Ford ECU. I also tried a different scan tool in Ford mode and I was able to get it to connect; I guess that the other one wasn't good enough.

Therefore I should be able to implement a mode that goes straight into the Ford V8 ECU without going via the Gateway ECU as the T4.

Anyway, I have already gotten the Gateway ECU protocol working. These are the screenshots:-

V8 Gateway ECU

http://pscan.uk/features/screenshots/v8gwinfo.png

http://pscan.uk/features/screenshots/v8gwcodes.png

http://pscan.uk/features/screenshots/v8gwlivedata.png

I think that the numbers for Revs and Coolant temp are a bit off, I need to re-check them.

X12 V8 Engine ECU (in T4 mode - via the Gateway ECU)


http://pscan.uk/features/screenshots/x12info.png

http://pscan.uk/features/screenshots/x12codes.png

I haven't finished reverse engineering all the live data parameters (there are lots) yet. I will update when that's done.

I did some testing today with the first 25 or so parameters that I reverse engineered using a Ford tool on a Mustang 4R3 ECU.

This is pscan (dev version) connecting to the Mustang ECU
http://pscan.uk/images/r75v8/mustanglivedata.png

This is the same software talking to a ZT 260
http://pscan.uk/images/r75v8/r75v8livedatapwm.png

The numbers will be different because the Mustang ECU is on the bench with no sensors, whereas the ZT 260 one is installed in a car....

The interesting thing is that one of the parameters (valid drive counter) is unreadable on the ZT 260 but it works on the Mustang.
Another is that certain parameters such as the fuel cap signal don't seem relevant to the ZT 260.

So, whilst I can pull more data from the ECU using Ford "language" I'm not sure that it's actually that useful.
I think for the time being I should concentrate on reading the data that a T4 can read rather than what a Ford tool can read.

The good news is that on the ZT 260 I was able to get into the ECU directly using the Ford data lines on the diagnostic socket. The picture above is doing that.

This picture below is using the same parameters (so reverse engineered from a Ford tool on a Mustang ECU) but through the Rover pins on the diagnostic socket to the Gateway ECU:-
http://pscan.uk/images/r75v8/r75v8livedatads2.png

This is good news. It means that pscan should be able to read straight from the engine ECU even if say the Gateway ECU has a problem.

I think that I'm nearly there.

One other thing to note is that the protocol runs a bit slower in a real car than it does with just the ECU on a bench.

In the car you can talk directly to the ECU in Ford mode but the Gateway ECU is still there chatting away on the same databus, and I think that this slows things down, or, you can go through the Gateway ECU but then you are talking to one ECU through another, which also slows it down.

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Originally Posted by pscan.eu

The guy who has one in Ruislip tells me that he wants to sell his (it's a green ZT 260, 60,000 miles and totally unmodified by the way)

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Do you happen to know if he sold it? I'd be very interested, if you would pass my details on to him I would greatly appreciate it.

Hi Philip
This is the first time I have used the pscan on my MG ZT 260 as my engine warning light came on today. The software loads and works fine. There are two software format selections named Ford and T4. First question is why are there two and what are the differences?
Running the program shows a fault code P0138 Sensor Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1 Sensor 2). If I run the Ford format it says misfire not detected yet the T4 states detected. Should I be using only one? If so which one?

Please see attached readout with the O2 reading variations all at tickover;
Bank 2 U/S O2 Heater fluctuates between on/off
Bank 1 U/S O2 Volts fluctuates between 0.06/0.83
Bank 1 D/S O2 Volts steady at 1.67
Bank 2 U/S O2 Volts fluctuates between 0.05/0.81
Bank 2 DS O2 Volts this climbs slowly from 0 to 0.9 but returns to 0 if the revs are lifted.
Listening to the engine there appears to be an intermittent misfire?? a put put sound at the exhaust.

I am aware that the error code could be caused by

1. the sensor
2. wiring/connections
3. leaking injector
4. catalyst

What would be a logical fault finding procedure based on the above data?


Attachment 12074

Did you run it more than once, Pete?

Kevin please see this thread which was moved to Technical in main forum https://www.two-sixties.co.uk/mgoc26...nk-1-Sensor-2)