The 260 market drying up? Some worrying observations.

[David]

You've probably noticed some turmoil in the market for ZT260's and Rover 75 V8's recently, much of which can be explained away by COVID I imagine, and to a lesser extent, fuel prices and the advent of EV's. This last 6 months the number of cars has shown an even more marked plummet however, before the Ukranian situation, and now only a handful of cars are known still to be for sale (See: Complete List of 260s FOR SALE (https://www.two-sixties.co.uk/mgoc260/html/f0rum/showthread.php?13272-Complete-List-of-260s-FOR-SALE).)

It used to take me an hour a day, updating twice daily to keep the 'Complete List' up to date. Now that's about 10 minutes.

At present, there are five members' cars are listed there, all MG 260s, but only one is being shown as being advertised elsewhere. Forum 'In-house' listings are fine, but generally ineffective as the sole manner of promoting sales, of course. Bit short-sighted, maybe? Excuse the pun, but also short-sited!

Dealers are simply not listing them any more. Several dealers could be relied on to have a few in their showrooms from time to time a couple of years ago, but not any more. Are they not being offered them, or actively avoiding them even?

OK, SMG have still got the 20-mile Rover 75 V8 of course, but outside of that, nothing.
Summit of Dudley last sold a 260 a year ago and have had none listed since.
Exactly the same with Beech Hill Garage, Studio Cars of Preston and Damen & Kroes in Holland.
Elite of Borden last listed a 260 over 2 years ago.

None of the upcoming auctions are showing any ZT 260 or R75V8, and haven't for over a year.
CCA, SWVA, Anglia, Barons, Brightwells, Mathewsons, Historic, Bonham's 'The Market' all found wanting!
Even Coparts can't help, by not having listed any "bent" ones at all for about 2 years!

Other than a single Facebook Marketplace listing, on-line listings are virtually absent in the UK.
Autotrader, eBay, Gumtree, Pistonheads haven't shown any listing for weeks and only one (member's) car is still listed, and actually for sale, on Car & Classic. Also true of the other RHD markets of Australia/NZ and S.Africa.

On the continent of Europe it is little better. One car is listed by Mobile.de, and the same car (actually a relisted RHD R75V8) is also on AutoScout24.
In France VIN #012 is still listed by Leboncoin, and the black Norwegian R75V8 (again) for sale from the dealer. Nothing on Reezo.de, Gaspedal.nl or eBay sites in Germany. Belgian, Scandinavian and Spanish sites, and the international "The Parking/Le Parking" have had nothing at all listed for a long time.

... and that's it!

Are they simply not out their? If not, why? Have dealers decided that they are too risky to have in showrooms or on forecourts at 17 years old+ ?
Are all our cars either dead or declared as "keepers" maybe?
Worse still, no longer regarded as desirable or "classic"?
With such scarcity of available cars, you would think the ones that are would be selling like 'hot-cakes', but apparently not.
Answers on a postcard!

David

[Dashnine]

I guess it depends on your point of view, as an owner or prospective buyer. As a buyer there's less to choose from, and current fuel prices won't help people decide to sell a 20mpg car but to an owner maybe it's a precursor to prices going up. If the pool of cars remains the same (the numbers of taxed and SORNed cars on HowManyLeft.co.uk should tell us that) then maybe people are hanging onto what they have with a view to the long term.

HowManyLeft is a useful tool, but beware - it's like disappearing down a rabbit hole!

[David]

I guess it depends on your point of view, as an owner or prospective buyer. As a buyer there's less to choose from, and current fuel prices won't help people decide to sell a 20mpg car but to an owner maybe it's a precursor to prices going up... They should by flying off the shelves then, but they are not (yet). Selling one appears still to be a long and painful process as ever; buying one can also be much the same, with one or two "dogs" starting to pop up now!

Five to seven years ago we had a similar 260/75V8 market here in Holland, as far as number of vehicles was concerned. I bought mine then (on the telephone) in 5 minutes, within a few hours of the listing. There was a queue of people (really) waiting when I went to pay and collect, just in case I changed my mind or wanted an instant profit. Not like that now, here or in the UK by the look of it. My 'Olive' is a keeper, until I pop my clogs!


HowManyLeft is a useful tool, but beware - it's like disappearing down a rabbit hole!Loads of fake news there, I'm afraid. More Rover 75 V8 Tourers still exist than were ever made, for example.

David

[colintf]

thanks David for the insight
cheers
Colin

[Dashnine]

They should by flying off the shelves then, but they are not (yet).
Yes, but if the price is rising people are going to hang onto them there's no large profit to be made in a £5K - £10K car.


Loads of fake news there, I'm afraid. More Rover 75 V8 Tourers still exist than were ever made, for example.
Agreed (hadn't checked the Rovers TBH), and it doesn't help that the MGs are split into differently named entries, but I think the pattern still shows that cars are gradually disappearing into SORN at the same rate they're becoming unlicenced - so they're off road but not scrapped.

I suspect the SORN cars are being tucked away until they're worth more as we're past the bottom of the depreciation curve. There's a small fluctuation in SORNs between Summer and Winter as cars come out to play in the Summer, but the trend is a gradually increasing one.

Then you have owners who see the future appreciation for these cars and are trying to keep the miles off them and in the garage rather than using as dailies (although it's bloody hard!) with no intention of selling for as long as possible (that's me then).

[DomT101]

I think it’s down to a multitude of factors:

1) The market for these cars isn’t exactly huge to start with. Only car enthusiast really know about them, the “average” car buying isn’t really aware of them.
2) With the state of fuel prices the “average” car buying isn’t in the market for any V8 let alone these, shrinking the market further.
3) With what’s happened over the last 2 years maybe more people are unintentionally holding onto these cars as a “collector car”. Me for example used the car as a daily 2 years ago, now it comes out once a week (maybe) and stays in the garage am I’m taking more care of it. So I’m less likely to sell and get another car and more likely to hold on to it.

Thats my 2 pence worth anyway

[Pete]

Here we go
Have the cars always been overpriced even from new? Are we a bunch of elitists who are living in our own little bubble extolling the virtues because they are part of a "special" rare collection and we perpetuate the price tag? As times change the fickle nature becomes more fickle.
I bought mine 6 years ago and took the view that if I still had it after 10 years it would own me nothing and would be written down to nil value. So whatever I could sell it for would be a bonus. These cars are never go to be true classics. That boat sailed some time ago.
I love mine and drive it regularly winter/spring/summer and autumn. I love discussing it and cars in general with like minded enthusiasts at the clubs and shows.

[David]

In all fairness, Pete, the OP was about the number of cars changing hands and the decreasing "pool" of cars on the market at present.
None of it was about prices, pricing trends or value in the more general sense, which you refer to.

David

[Tim]

I just see it as the ebbs and flows of demand. Yes fuel prices are high and that would have an impact. Virgin interest is fickle and dependant on publications/media/events, and numbers will always be declining to a point the car will hit a 'balance' value again. I don't think they are over valued, just based on supply and demand.

[SCP440]

Could part of the reason the present owners don't have any reason to sell them?

I for one have no intention of selling mine if for no other reason what would I replace it with? Everything manufacturerd in the last 15 years is either eye Wateringly expensive to buy and or maintain or dull as dishwater.

I love the idea of some of the Merc and BMW's but have you seen what it costs to keep them on the road?

Steve

[Stu C]

I suppose could also be the same for other specialist cars, only a limited number of cars made and people keeping them for long term. Me personally i think it's a good thing because less for sale means more people are keeping them. On the flip side, less available to buy for new owners but i guess means more interest for ones that do come up for sale :)

[SCP440]

I think fuel consumption has very little to do with the market for our cars, most classic cars will struggle to do more than mid 20's and most only do a few thousand miles a year anyway.

Steve

[Pete]

(9) MG Rover 260 V8 Owners and Enthusiasts | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/875303645900722/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=4743565239074524)

[Dashnine]

(9) MG Rover 260 V8 Owners and Enthusiasts | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/875303645900722/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=4743565239074524)
And another pops up on Autotrader?. Panic over!:-)

[David]

Looks quite smart (bit tidier than the oddly wheeled XPG "project" on the 'Bay today).

Doing a rather summary check on the reg. of VIN #276, showed something odd though. Back in 2018, the car turned up for sale at £9,990 in a place called Sale, Manchester. Mileage 85k. Then the dealer listing it, Eccles and Irlam Car Sales Ltd., promptly went into administration, and the car went 'off the radar' for a while.

Two years later at the last registered MOT in July 2020, it had driven only a further 60 miles (85,687).
and was again offered for sale, now asking £6,995 on Gumtree.

Odd that it has now in 2022, miraculously driven a good deal backwards, reaching 81,000 miles, and awarded a full "12 months MOT" !
Claimed to be 'one-owner', and no indication of log-book changes since 2012, so presumably the same owner all along.

David

[Hudsok]

Hi All,

I've just bought #276. All above board. It has 85k miles and MOTs and service history to back this up. A typo I would guess on the advert as the owner was a lovely guy and very trustworthy. One 'registered' owner from new it has sat as part of a collection for 2 other owners in between. I'm the 2nd owner on the logbook and thoroughly pleased with the car. It's lovely.

[David]

Hi All,

I've just bought #276. All above board. It has 85k miles and MOTs and service history to back this up. A typo I would guess on the advert as the owner was a lovely guy and very trustworthy. One 'registered' owner from new it has sat as part of a collection for 2 other owners in between. I'm the 2nd owner on the logbook and thoroughly pleased with the car. It's lovely. That may explain the discrepancy, I guess. Where abouts (roughly) are you located, may I ask?

David

[Hudsok]

Banbury, Oxfordshire. In between Prodrive and Gaydon Motor Museum. Around the corner from Haas F1. :)

[David]

Banbury, Oxfordshire. In between Prodrive and Gaydon Motor Museum. Around the corner from Haas F1. :)
Quite a few knowledgeable Two-Sixties members close to you, I think. Handy, should you ever need local supplier, services or garage advice (it appears that in my neck of the woods, I am "the local advice", sadly!).

David

[Hudsok]

Thank you David, that would be very helpful. I have a couple of 'familiar' issues from what I have read on the forums. A bit of prop knock and the heater....but I still love it!

[Dashnine]

Thank you David, that would be very helpful. I have a couple of 'familiar' issues from what I have read on the forums. A bit of prop knock and the heater....but I still love it!
Hi and welcome again, we met at Gaydon the other evening - here's a link to David's 'recipe' for getting the best out of the air con that I think I mentioned, or at least part of it! I find this works well, and if you hit the Econ button it'll turn off the AC whilst still allowing some air flow in the cooler UK (and improve the mpg marginally - but we didn't buy a 4.6 litre V8 for the economy! :-) )

Getting ONLY cold air from the A/C (two-sixties.co.uk) (https://www.two-sixties.co.uk/mgoc260/html/f0rum/showthread.php?17019-Getting-ONLY-cold-air-from-the-A-C)

[Hudsok]

Hello again! Was good to talk with you on Tuesday and see a fellow owner. Thanks for this, I will give it a try at the weekend. It's definitely Smiles per gallon, not miles per gallon! But better on fuel than my old Landrover...

[anthony27]

This thread is now over a month old, so my post may be out-of-date.

But there is an upside to fewer cars on the market: rarity.

For most it's not an everyday car, so fuel consumption isn't really an issue.

[David]

This thread is now over a month old, so my post may be out-of-date.
But there is an upside to fewer cars on the market: rarity.
For most it's not an everyday car, so fuel consumption isn't really an issue.

Volumes are too low to represent a reliable sample over such short time spans I think, but I get an inkling that you may well be right, from recent sales. We shall see.

"Watch this space", and of course the Monthly Ins-and-Outs thread at the start of each month.
https://www.two-sixties.co.uk/mgoc260/html/f0rum/showthread.php?17546-Cars-For-Sale-the-Ins-and-Outs and go to the Last posts.

David

[SCP440]

The problem is at the moment with what had been and what is happening around the world and I BBC constantly threatening us with a recession a lot of people are keeping there money in the pockets.

I know a lot of people who have there own business and all are saying that they have never been so busy. Hopefully once this madness in the Ukraine has s
finished things will start getting back to something like normal.

Personally I think fuel prices will stay roughly where they are, the only thing that will make them drop is if we stop buying it.

Steve

[Peter260]

I can only comment on the European market for a LHD ZT-T.

Roughly 3 years ago, I started looking for one again (I owned #0800 from new till 2010).
Thinking there is no point looking only in the Netherlands so searched for European offerings using Mobile, autoscout24 and local marktplaats.

Any car in the 20-25K upwards I more or less ignored as I wanted a car to use for fun.
Not worry about loosing value simply because I drive it.

There was 1 car on offer in Germany that I really liked, but due to Covid could not go and see in person. The seller did not want to keep the car for me, even if I paid in full (I am fluent in German so it was not a matter of communication. He simply did not know how long Covid restrictions would last and was convinced he would sell it anyway).
The car got sold a bit later, so if it was impossible to sell, I would think they would have tried a bit harder.

Earlier this year my old ZT-T came up for sale. (240.000 km on the clock. I did the first 160K).
Interestingly the seller phoned me up after I bought the car on paper and made the downpayment etc. He had another interested buyer whether I would be willing to let it go?
(I did not, but he actually commented he sold it too quickly as he would have made more money on it).

Just my experience.

[David]

A lot of cars are being offered for sale at very high prices at the moment in Europe, and not many of them are selling, perhaps as a result. Certainly nothing less than Euro 30k available anywhere for a LHD 260 or R75V8 now. No, not a mis-typing, albeit that both are in France.
My dear old 'Olive' is looking concerned!

RHD cars which were still "fair game" in Germany a couple of years ago, have fallen from favour there recently, and proving difficult/impossible to sell on the continent. Some/most no longer have a UK 'title', which means re-importation into the UK to be able to be sold there, and that would be very expensive too post Brexit. Leaves them a bit in a state of limbo.

Your car was a bit of an exception, Peter, being 'pure Dutch', and the Starlight Silver ZT-T in Germany, if that's the one you refer to, went to France in the end, where prices are the highest at the moment. The same was the case with #721, the Royal Blue Tourer. The German owner of #719, the ZT-T in Moody Blue, steadfastly stuck to his guns for years, despite receiving (I think) reasonable offers, eventually dropping well below those offers to sell. Being stubborn is not always the best tactic. OK, that was a commission or 'consignment' sale I believe, which generally does little to serve the interests of any of the 3 parties at the and of the day, I think.

In the case of your car, #800 ...


...he actually commented he sold it too quickly as he would have made more money on it ...... OK, 2 weeks on sale is not a lot, but I think he can't really complain after what he paid for the car!

A little bird tells me a that a certain rather nice Finnish registered LHD Aquamarine (Goodwood) Green ZT-T may be up for sale again too. Currently unofficially 'holidaying' in Belgium. Being LHD, non-EU, non-UK could be a problem? Anyone potentially interested can be put in touch, if you would like to PM me.

David

[K11NGSLEY]

I have been looking on and off for a number of years now, specifically for a UK ZT-T.

a few years ago there always seemed to be a few ZTs dotted about with maybe 1 ZT-T popping up every now and again.

Financially never worked out and I would say now that very few come up, even less under £10K. This forum is by far the best place to look.

thanks to those who maintain it.

[David]

I have been looking on and off for a number of years now, specifically for a UK ZT-T.
A few years ago there always seemed to be a few ZTs dotted about with maybe 1 ZT-T popping up every now and again.
Financially never worked out and I would say now that very few come up, even less under £10K. This forum is by far the best place to look.
...
There are only three ZT-T road-cars for sale at present as far as I know , and only two are RHD and UK registered.
Looking through the "Complete list", member "Mean Green" lists #427 in post #8 here:
https://www.two-sixties.co.uk/mgoc260/html/f0rum/showthread.php?13272-Complete-List-of-260s-FOR-SALE

The full details of the car may not be available if try to follow the link there, since you are not yet a full-member, but you could always send a PM to him asking for details, if you are currently looking to buy? Alternatively PM your email address to me (Member-name "David"), and I will forward it to the seller, if you wish. I think the car is still available.

I update the Complete List at least twice daily, so you are unlikely to miss much if you keep looking there.
Where are you actually located (roughly) may I ask?

David

[K11NGSLEY]

Hi David - thanks for the information and offer to help.

Currently I don?t have the funds, I came on here to see how the market was doing for when I can make this work and this thread interested me given it?s looking like there may not be much to choose from!

I?m in West Sussex, there is a Rover 75 V8 a couple of miles from me which I have always admired and the ZT-T just ticks so many boxes for me.