Supercharging?

[Gaz]

Out of curiosity, is anybody still doing this work? Or could this be a DIY job?

If I do get a v8 zt I would love to have a kenne bell fitted at some point.

[colintf]

The key is getting the mapping right, especially preventing it going lean.

many might say they can do it properly. There's only 1 maybe 2 that could really be trusted IMHO, and one of those don't do it anymore sadly.

[Gaz]

Can it not just be mapped by a mustang specialist? Or does it run a MGR ecu?

[colintf]

Can it not just be mapped by a mustang specialist? Or does it run a MGR ecu?

I believe many many many hours were invested getting the Dreadnought map right. I don't believe it's as simple as a Mustang specialist mapping it....

[Gaz]

Okay dokie. So whose 'the other' company trusted with fitting a supercharger?

OR, failing all of that is it true that 300bhp is possible with a different throttle body and inlet?

Or how about ITB's?

This news is a real shame because I really was hoping to super charge a 260 one-day.

[Nich]

Okay dokie. So whose 'the other' company trusted with fitting a supercharger?

OR, failing all of that is it true that 300bhp is possible with a different throttle body and inlet?

Or how about ITB's?

This news is a real shame because I really was hoping to super charge a 260 one-day.

If you joined this forum eleven years ago then you would probably have picked up on the vibes surrounding supercharging these cars. There is nothing stopping you fitting a supercharger but as Colin says there really is only one option for mapping the ECU and that is Chris Flanagan at Retro Sports Cars who is well known on this forum.

The TB replacement will give you a possible increase in bhp but only by about 15, taking it to 275.

Nich.

[Gaz]

I've seen a zt-t with a 5.0 coyote engine. Think it was imported to the states or somewhere and has been engine swapped. That engine makes over 400 bhp even without a super charger, so maybe that is an option?

Probably prohibitively expensive though?

[re-tread]

A 32v transplant may be possible https://www.retrosportscars.co.uk/mg-zt-xpower-coupe

[Tim]

You can do anything if money is no object. :) Steve imported a car to see if it could take the 5l engine so off the top of my head there are five now with Coyote engines. The running gear etc is good to 450hp so an engine swap is viable subject to bunce. Best way for you is to look out for a supercharged car for sale.


I've seen a zt-t with a 5.0 coyote engine. Think it was imported to the states or somewhere and has been engine swapped. That engine makes over 400 bhp even without a super charger, so maybe that is an option?

Probably prohibitively expensive though?

[TyphoonTom]

It's a real shame that no-one is offering super charger conversion anymore as there is clearly some interest in it - but I can understand that due to the economics of it there just isn't enough of us to make it viable for those that can do it.

Unless maybe we get a list going of owners with serious intentions of supercharging and take that to the likes of Dreadnought etc and ask them to "pretty please" do a further one off batch of conversions?

[David]

Indeed, not that it would be interesting for me with a R75V8 Auto; Dreadnought experimented with the R75V8, but couldn't get anything near to satisfactory, I understand.

Manjit did a couple of ZT 260s, and was going to have a crack at offering S/C conversions as a product, but that appears to be a dead-end too now.

Everyone has been trying to persuade Brain ('scooter' at Dreadnought), to consider opening up the "S/C shop" again for several years, but he won't be swayed.

David

[ColinE]

Indeed, not that it would be interesting for me with a R75V8 Auto; Dreadnought experimented with the R75V8, but couldn't get anything near to satisfactory, I understand.

Manjit did a couple of ZT 260s, and was going to have a crack at offering S/C conversions as a product, but that appears to be a dead-end too now.

Everyone has been trying to persuade Brain ('scooter' at Dreadnought), to consider opening up the "S/C shop" again for several years, but he won't be swayed.

David

I think it should be noted that one of the issues is the general health of the engine - it has been found that engines that have been redlined are more prone to failure post SC, as these cars age and change hands it is very difficult for the owner to guarantee to the company doing the SC that the engine is in good health. Short of an engine rebuild as part of the SC project - more expense - then I don't see a work around. Signing an agreement that you accept that engine failure post SC install is at owners own risk doesn't really instil confidence.

And Brian has made it very clear that they won't be starting SC projects again - partly due to the above and partly the difficulty in getting reliable supply of the components.

[stevemiller]

My rebuild using Teksid block and fully forged (Rated to 650 BHP capability) will be running as the previous two blocks that failed on me 400 bhp. My man maths may be incorrect but this is my rough calculation. Engine $7375 plus Sundries $2328 ($9703 @ 1/1.38 = £7031 plus carriage (£500 - £2100) plus import duties = total £9.5k to £11k. Then install (I have the S/C already (Dreadnought 2010) plus heads 1 possibly 2 means not much change £14k. At a £14k on the road cost the car should just be around its selling potential (Not for Sale). I have chosen this route as with all the best intentions and providence my first engine popped around 50k miles and the second 7k miles at install plus only 2k miles of further use I want to know I will not break this third install, touch wood. I could only justify this as the car has been in my hands since early 2008, I know the car.

To S/C on a car that could have been over 6000 revs a number of time if you are second, third owner etc is asking for trouble. A new crate 5.0 will cost around £9k unless already in the UK and then you have still got to get it in the car. I would say you really, really need to want this to justify the cost. Worth it if you plan to keep for many a year, like me.

A poor man signing off!

[Gaz]

Could an ECU from a running supercharged car not just be cloned?

[Les4048]

Could an ECU from a running supercharged car not just be cloned?
Yes it can but you’ll run the risk of landing and in court as the map belongs to Sean Hyland

[David]

Yes it can but you’ll run the risk of landing and in court as the map belongs to Sean Hyland
As I understand it, only Brian had (/has?) the license to install the Kenne Bell with a SHM map in the UK, and then only a vehicle installation on his own premises. No selling on or "sub-licensing" of the map or mapped ECU's. If Dreadnought chooses not to, or is prevented from installing, now or in the future, and SHM is not willing to re-assign an installation license for their map, then it appears that the route of using the KB charger with a proven, reliable ZT260 map is firmly closed.

I assume that SHM have it legally covered, in that if someone buys a Dreadnought converted car, the license restrictions continue to apply, preventing cloning. After all, as second or third owner etc., you did not actually sign any agreement directly with SHM or Dreadnought.

There are plenty of Mustang 4.6 2V supercharging possibilities, also including using the Kenne Bell charger, but as 'colintf' says, the ZT260 map is the problem. For example: https://kennebell.net/products/supercharger-kits/mustang/kenne-bell-supercharger-kit-mustang-46-26-28-1996-2004/

David

[Dominic22]

Sean Hyland Motorsport went out of Business a few years ago so they no longer exist as a company so i am sure it would be fine but not needed as honestly having looked extensivly into mapping of the SV and other Mustang deriviatives there are plenty of places you can get it sorted in the UK or the US
I am sure Chris can do it at Retro for the 260 but you could also speak to a US tuner VMP, Lund, Steve Shrader etc who have tuned many Mustangs and swap vehicles.

[T16]

lol.
Given all the issues, I cannot say I am surprised. In that case why anybody would have any qualms in extracting the map, I have no idea. As if many people would care about a tiny handful of enthusiasts with cars hardly anyone even has heard of.
I am sure it has already been done, but will say nothing further on that!

[David]

Somebody did care enough to create it in the first place, and just not knowing the ownership of the intellectual rights, doesn't mean it's perfectly legal to claim them for yourself. As you say, probably not going to be a problem because you're unlikely to be found out, but not exactly ethical is it?

I used to make software for a business and was robbed blind by people "borrowing" the results of my efforts, and claiming it didn't really matter.
Common "justification" was that everybody does it. No they don't, only thieves do.

David

[T16]

The business does not exist. So there is quite literally no other option.

[David]

The business does not exist. So there is quite literally no other option.
I imagine the gent over in Callander may have some more info on that.
He may well (still) have some claim on rights with respect to the software, if not its ownership.

David

[T16]

Cool then if so lets see some commercial activity in place to support people that wish to purchase maps.
If not, then... lost money and maps will be copied by others.
Can't have it both ways.

[SCP440]

The business does not exist. So there is quite literally no other option.

Withe the correct software and some time on a rolling road a new map could be written. Probably not a bad idea as the original map would have been designed safe so probably some extra HP available if wanted.

The problem as has been said adding 50% or more to an engines HP after 15 years of use is probably going to end badly. I will repeat what I have said before, If you want to get your car to go like a Ferrar go and buy a Ferrari.

Steve

[Zonic66]

Just to say though Steve, our cars were designed to have the charger fitted, yes I get it that after 15 yrs service you would need to do a top to tail refurb / check to fit it with confidence however I fully subscribe to having a sleeper that has 409 horses and let’s face it l, dam sight cheaper than your prancing horse !

[Gaz]

Cool then if so lets see some commercial activity in place to support people that wish to purchase maps.
If not, then... lost money and maps will be copied by others.
Can't have it both ways.

And the map would be cloned purely for personal use and non profit.

Besides, if I understand this correctly, the zt260 has two ECU'S? One for the rover side of the car and a separate Ford ECU for the engine?

If that's correct, then I don't see how the fact that the engine is in a rover makes much difference as far as employing a mustang tuner to map the engine?

Should be the same as mapping a regular Stang?

[David]

... Should be the same as mapping a regular Stang?
Apparently not. You need to have an Rover original map loaded which is different to its 'Stang cousin, I understand (Chris/Nick et al.).
The actual ECU hardware is the same (different units for manual and auto though).

David

[SCP440]

Some of the "kits" come with a chip that you replace in the ECU but for some reason that does not work in out cars. My guess it is probably something to do with the engine immobiliser or gateway ECU.

Steve

[David]

Some of the "kits" come with a chip that you replace in the ECU but for some reason that does not work in out cars. My guess it is probably something to do with the engine immobiliser or gateway ECU.

Steve
Presumably it's a Mustang chip you get, not Rover/MG one, so won't work in the same way that a genuine new Ford Mustang ECU will not work in a Rover/MG either. Not just a matter of registering the 'master' ECU with the gateway ECU and immobiliser etc. as it normally is with a new ECU.

David

[Nich]

As much as I appreciate a healthy discussion please remember that the original poster joined this forum 12 years ago and is still not in possession of a car that will qualify him to be a 260's member so all speculation about the issue of supercharging opportunities and maps is just that, speculation. Nothing wrong with that but seems a bit pointless if you still haven't got a car to work on.

:~

Nich.

[Hairysnid]

As much as I appreciate a healthy discussion please remember that the original poster joined this forum 12 years ago and is still not in possession of a car that will qualify him to be a 260's member so all speculation about the issue of supercharging opportunities and maps is just that, speculation. Nothing wrong with that but seems a bit pointless if you still haven't got a car to work on.

:~

Nich.

I've found this thread very interesting reading being a 260 owner who would very much like to have a Supercharger fitted to my car.
Personally, I'm glad the thread is still running.

[Nich]

I've found this thread very interesting reading being a 260 owner who would very much like to have a Supercharger fitted to my car.
Personally, I'm glad the thread is still running.

Plenty of information on here about supercharging our cars without the information (or lack of it) in this thread.

Because the OP is not a full member (because he does not own a 260/R75 V8) then he has no access to the wealth of information on this forum on this topic. He cites spurious/hearsay claims about the cars in other threads but as it is all in the Public Area the debate is somewhat limited. Happy to see the debate continue but it is only speculation and not particularly relelvant. If you are serious and want to supercharge your car then look at the relevant threads in the Forum, they will give you much more useful and accurate information.

Nich.

[Gaz]

Withe the correct software and some time on a rolling road a new map could be written. Probably not a bad idea as the original map would have been designed safe so probably some extra HP available if wanted.

The problem as has been said adding 50% or more to an engines HP after 15 years of use is probably going to end badly. I will repeat what I have said before, If you want to get your car to go like a Ferrar go and buy a Ferrari.

Steve

Looking at experiences based on super changing 2valve 4.6 mustangs I see that people have had problems with engine failures with stangs too.

Although many factors are at play, it seems to me that 'Bad maps' and poor tuning is a common issue . So the fact that its a Ford engine in a rover isn't the reason for failure, as mustangs fail too.

Seems the engine just needs a good tuner who knows what they are doing with the 4.6 2v , not so much a 'ZT260 specialist' .

A forged build would probably be a good idea too as with any engine looking to make significant gains with forced induction.